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35p18b - Type 1, 3 Pass Pineapple knot from a 13p6b base
PostPosted: Mon Apr 27, 2009 6:43 pm  Reply with quote
Shamr0ck
 
Joined: 25 Jun 2008
Posts: 123

Location: Frederick MD, USA


All,

I've been trading emails and PMs with a couple of folks about "longer" (i.e. greater number of parts) Pineapple Knots and late one Saturday night, I sat down with a copy of Dan's tutorials for the 7p6b knot and worked on putting a Type 1 interweave into a larger knot.

I chose to use a 13p6b knot as the base and add two interweaves.  To get started (it was late and I was looking for a quick start) I used Tim Allwine's GridMaker to generate the base knot run list and pinned onto a papertowel tube stuffed with newspaper for rigidity.

Here is a pic of the finished product ~ please post ?s to this forum topic and for pete's sake, if I've goofed in the Os and Us, please chime in as I found it very hard to both tie and document the knot.



Base Knot (13p6b THK ~ CASA)

1 ) From Left pin 1 to Right pin 1
2 ) From Right pin 1 O2 to Left pin 2
3 ) From Left pin 2 O2 to Right pin 2
4 ) From Right pin 2 U1 O1 U1 O1 to Left pin 3
5 ) From Left pin 3 U1 O1 U1 O1 to Right pin 3
6 ) From Right pin 3 O1 U1 O2 U1 O1 to Left pin 4
7 ) From Left pin 4 O1 U1 O2 U1 O1 to Right pin 4
8 ) From Right pin 4 U1 O1 U1 O1 U1 O1 U1 O1 to Left pin 5
9 ) From Left pin 5 U1 O1 U1 O1 U1 O1 U1 O1 to Right pin 5
10 ) From Right pin 5 O1 U1 O1 U1 O2 U1 O1 U1 O1 to Left pin 6
11 ) From Left pin 6 O1 U1 O1 U1 O2 U1 O1 U1 O1 to Right pin 6
12 ) From Right pin 6 U1 O1 U1 O1 U1 O1 U1 O1 U1 O1 U1 O1 to Left pin 1

run list courtesy of Tim Allwine's GridMaker (13p 6b \/ coding) available via http://khww.net/gridmaker



Notes:  I tend to orient the TH and interweaves horizontally rather than vertically, hence the Left/Right notation rather than the Up/Down notation seen occasionally
I built this long THK as a way to test whether the Type 1 Interweave methodology would hold for knots longer than ones I'd seen in various tutorials available on the web and books
The Running lists for Strands 2 and 3 below will yield a Type 1 Pineapple Knot
Knot 1:  13p6b RED THK, Casa Coded
Knot 2:  11p6b RED
Knot 3:  11p6b YELLOW

When deciding on the base knot's geometry,you must also take into account the Type of PK you intend to tie.  If Type 1, where the interweaves are entirely held within the bight boundary of
base knot, the Interweaves will have 2 FEWER parts than the base knot so you need to ensure that the interweave can be tied.  To test, ensure that the number of Parts and Bights have a greatest
common denominator (GCD) of ONE.  If the GCD is greater than ONE, then you either need to tie a Type 2 Pineapple Knot OR change the base knot geometry.

example:
Type 1 PineApple Knot
Base Knot: 11p6b
Pass 2: 9p6b  <------ CAN't Be tied as GCD=3, 3>1

so, either change base knot to 13p6b with Pass 2 being 11p6b (passes the GCD test) OR change the PineApple Knot geometry to a Type 2 interweave.

For a full discussion on PineApple Knot types, please see "Introduction to Turk's Head Knots" by Tom Hall.


** Split pair in middle
*** Split pair at end
@X indicates that you are at the knot's edge and simultaneously completing one Half-Cycles pass and starting the next in a SINGLE move


Strand 2
1 ) ----> U2-O-U-O-U-O-U-O-U-O-U2@X
2 ) <---- O-U-O-U-O2**-U-O-U-O-U2@X
3 ) ----> O-U-O-U-O2**-U-O-U-O-U3***@X
4 ) <---- O-U-O-U-O2**-U2**-O-U-O-U3***@X
5 ) ----> O-U-O-U-O2**-U2**-O-U-O-U3***@X
6 ) ----> O2**-U-O-U-O2**-U2**-O2**-U-O-U3***@X
7 ) ----> O2**-U-O-U-O2**-U2**-O2**-U-O-U3***@X
8 ) <---- O2**-U2**-O-U-O2**-U2**-O2**-U2**-O-U3***@X
9 ) ---->  O2**-U2**-O-U-O2**-U2**-O2**-U2**-O-U3***@X
10 ) <---- O2**-U2**-O2**-U-O2**-U2**-O2**-U2**-O2**-U3***@X
11 ) ----> O2**-U2**-O2**-U-O2**-U2**-O2**-U2**-O2**-U3***@X
12 ) <---- O2**-U2**-O2**-U2**-O2**-U2**-O2**-U2**-O2**-U2**-O2**-U2 ------> OUT

Strand 3
1 ) ----> U4-O2-U2-O2-U2-O2-U2-O2-U2-O2-U2@X
2 ) <---- O2-U2-O2-U2-O3**-U2-O2-U2-O2-U4@X
3 ) ----> O2-U2-O2-U2-O3**-U2-O2-U2-O2-U3***@X
4 ) <---- O2-U2-O2-U2-O3**-U3**-O2-U2-O2-U5***@X
5 ) ----> O2-U2-O2-U2-O3**-U3**-O2-U2-O2-U3***@X
6 ) <---- O3**-U2-O2-U2-O3**-U3**-O3**-U2-O2-U***5@X
7 ) ----> O3**-U2-O2-U2-O3**-U3**-O3**-U2-O2-U3***@X
8 ) <---- O3**-U3**-O2-U2-O3**-U3**-O3**-U3**-O2-U5***@X
9 ) ----> O3**-U3**-O2-U2-O3**-U3**-O3**-U3**-O2-U3***@X
10 ) <---- O3**-U3**-O3**-U2-O3**-U3**-O3**-U3**-O3**-U5***@X
11 ) ----> O3**-U3**-O3**-U2-O3**-U3**-O3**-U3**-O3**-U3***@X
12 ) <---- O3**-U3**-O3**-U3**-O3**-U3**-O3**-U3**-O3**-U4 ------> OUT

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Thx, Shamr0ck
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 27, 2009 9:15 pm Reply with quote
SS369
 
Joined: 22 Dec 2008
Posts: 99



Super good job of it Shamrock!
I just tied it, though didn't dress it yet, but it all went well as it should.
I tied using a Single Lead and it worked!

One mistake (not yours!), my fault, As I reentered the knot to start the pineapple part using the single lead, I went over instead of under, but all the sequences went according to plan!
It is much better to understand the splitting of the pairs, but the recipe did help this go around.

So hard to see them buggers!!!

Great job and thank you very much!

Scott

P.S. this could/should also go into the forum spot for the single lead "heel knot".
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 28, 2009 3:53 am Reply with quote
Shamr0ck
 
Joined: 25 Jun 2008
Posts: 123

Location: Frederick MD, USA


Scott ~

Thanks for the verification.  I won't admit to how many times I took a couple half cycles out and then put them back in correctly! Smile  [2nd pass wasn't too bad, but the third done in Red was ->  switched to yellow as a result]

I still find it blessedly hard to see the pairs when it gets crowded on the mandrel and am trying to take Sidney Wood's cue to pin it on a mandrel and either use a large enough diameter tube or long enough distance between the bights that there is plenty of breathing space...

I used contrasting colors for the 3rd pass so the picture would be more clear for those reading the tutorial and frankly, it was easier for me to see the pairs as they got laid and needed to be subsequently split.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 28, 2009 7:09 am Reply with quote
Shamr0ck
 
Joined: 25 Jun 2008
Posts: 123

Location: Frederick MD, USA


Another point for those keen of eye (and or curious)

One of the things I don't like to do is bury ends, so in this case since both the Base Knot and the first interweave are the same color, I used the same strand so that I only had 2 ends.  I started the YELLOW pass midway through the knot so the WEnd and STEnd are on the far side of the mandrel and can't be seen in the picture.

Now, if you look at the left hand edge of the knot closely, you can see where the STEnd enters the knot and as the base knot completes (and starts to double) the WEnd makes an IMPLICIT U2 to commence the first interweave.

I had a ? about this as the person wanted to tie this entire knot in a single color in a SINGLE strand, so if that is what you want to do, you will need to modify the first tuck in the first half-cycle to accommodate the desire to use a single strand.

If it were me, I'd likely use a SECOND piece of cord in a contrasting color  to get the first half cycle into the knot correctly for each subsequent pass and then replace it with the single strand....

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 28, 2009 12:27 pm Reply with quote
gtech
 
Joined: 14 Apr 2009
Posts: 2



Very nice, and exactly what I need for a stainless steel spike I received yesterday.

After much reading and drawing, I can know tie a TH freehand on a mandrel, and can see what I should do. So I should be able to try your PK soon...

Thanks for posting it. Very helpful.

Gilles
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 28, 2009 12:48 pm Reply with quote
Shamr0ck
 
Joined: 25 Jun 2008
Posts: 123

Location: Frederick MD, USA


good news ~ please post pictures once you are done...

Learning to tie these knots is fun and once you get to the point where you can just follow the knot and not the O-U recipe is even better.

Best

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 10, 2009 8:57 pm Reply with quote
SS369
 
Joined: 22 Dec 2008
Posts: 99



Taking this superb tutorial by Shamrock and using it gave a very good insight to the single lead pks.
I took the lesson learned and applied it to a 4 bight long pk which I retraced (ran parallel to original runs) with a contrasting color.
15px4b pk

The trick is to find and split the pairs!
Any tips on keep those buggers findable would be a great boon to us all.
Please speak up.


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35p18b - Type 1, 3 Pass Pineapple knot from a 13p6b base
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